Radio Debate

"OPPOsaurus WRX" (opposaurus) 05/12/2016 at 08:59 • Filed to: None

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I’m listening to the radio at work and they are discussing this guy who is a proven piece of shit. He led the cops on a high speed chase. People called in who were near by and said things like ‘this guy passed me in traffic going about 100 mph 2' from my car. ‘he nearly killed my neighbor’ etc etc.

Some people are saying the cops had no right and others are saying they didn’t hit him hard enough. The cops are not the judge and jury. It sounds like many of the cops knew this guy well and this was not his first chase. That doesn’t justify what happened but maybe it begins to explain how it went down like that.

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Justin Hughes > OPPOsaurus WRX 05/12/2016 at 09:12

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I’ve been following this since the chase went pretty much through my backyard (I’d like to watch the whole thing). That was such a poorly executed felony stop. Who knows if there was someone else in the truck waiting to attack, or the driver himself was armed and suckering them in? They’re right to take him down and cuff him quickly, but as he was surrendering rather than threatening police at the time, they were wrong to beat him like they did. I’m guessing this guy will end up walking because of that.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > OPPOsaurus WRX 05/12/2016 at 09:12

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No sympathy ever for these guys. Wanna lead the cops on a chase and risk killing innocent people? You deserve to get the shit kicked out of you upon arrest.

Stapleface > OPPOsaurus WRX 05/12/2016 at 09:12

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Here's the thing. For the most part, I think police are completely justified in their actions. Their main objection, first and foremost, should be their own safety. Were they a bit excessive? Perhaps. But there's an easy solution to this. Don't be a slimeball and run from the cops and give them a reason to use force.

Honeybunchesofgoats > OPPOsaurus WRX 05/12/2016 at 09:14

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Lots of people deserve to get the shit kicked out of them, but thankfully we live in a civilized society with a judicial system, so that should never happen. There’s something especially troubling when police do it. On the most basic level it speaks to an ingrained misunderstanding of their role as tools (el oh el double entendre) in the justice system. They don’t get to make decisions as to someone’s penalty for a crime, and anyone who thinks differently isn't fit for the job.

Justin Hughes > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 05/12/2016 at 09:19

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Aren’t you Canadian? ;)

Party-vi > OPPOsaurus WRX 05/12/2016 at 09:20

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I don’t want a cop protecting and serving me that can’t keep his or her emotions in check.

Xyl0c41n3 > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 09:21

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People’s civil rights still exist even when they’re being a “slimeball.” That's the entire point of our civil rights: they're supposed to be there not only when we are at our worst, but law enforcement is, too.

Xyl0c41n3 > Honeybunchesofgoats 05/12/2016 at 09:22

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Exactly. Well said.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Xyl0c41n3 05/12/2016 at 09:24

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if that guy ran you off the road, would you want to take a swing?

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > Justin Hughes 05/12/2016 at 09:28

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Yeah but born and raised in Texas. It evens out haha

Justin Hughes > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 05/12/2016 at 09:29

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Ah, so it’s your southern hospitality coming through!

Stapleface > Xyl0c41n3 05/12/2016 at 09:31

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While I hear what you’re saying, and you’re right by the way the laws are written, I have to say I have a bit of a differing opinion. Maybe it’s “white privilege”, but I think perhaps we extend civil rights too far in this country. If you’ve committed a crime (such as running from the cops and having outstanding assault/battery warrants , for instance), you’ve given those rights up.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 09:38

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Except that’s not how rights work.

duurtlang > OPPOsaurus WRX 05/12/2016 at 09:39

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I would want to. I also would be wrong if I actually did so. Especially if I was there as an active law enforcement officer. What those cops did is completely understandable from a human point of view, yet also utterly unprofessional. There is zero reason for them to punch a suspect who’s already surrendered. Zero. It’s not their jobs to punish someone as they see fit. Those who punched probably should lose their jobs because of it as they very clearly lack the self control needed for their line of work.

Stapleface > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 05/12/2016 at 09:43

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Perhaps it's how it should work though.

ttyymmnn > OPPOsaurus WRX 05/12/2016 at 09:48

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Sure, but I’m not a cop.

yamahog > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 09:50

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“Maybe it’s ‘white privilege’, but I think perhaps we extend civil rights too far in this country.”

My eyebrows about rose off my face reading that... I think you know it’s white privilege to think that civil rights have been extended too far. No "maybe."

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 09:50

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Vigilante justice? That’s how a mob works. Not a civilized society.

Somethin' 'bout a truck > Xyl0c41n3 05/12/2016 at 09:51

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So do all the civil rights of those not breaking the law. So what, he got beat up a bit. If you commit the crime and threaten the lives of innocent bystanders and officers then a few well-deserved punches to the face should be expected.

Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 09:53

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Due Process... It’s a cornerstone of the law in this country. The police’s job is to detain, arrest, and investigate - then hand their information to prosecution. Criminals have rights, too. The main purpose of defense attorneys is supposed to defend the rights of people accused of crimes.

Based on the video, he was apparently surrendering and the cops just began to attack him. They deserve to face disciplinary action.

shop-teacher > OPPOsaurus WRX 05/12/2016 at 10:06

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This is a thing that cops do. It’s not OK, but it is what usually happens. Know this everybody: if you run from the cops, they will beat the crap out of you.

crowmolly > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 10:10

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A lot of the time police use resisting arrest as a justification to apply force. People kick, spit, claw, draw weapons, etc and they need to contain the situation. Hell, even a mag dump on an active shooter makes sense.

But in this case the dude was on the ground and the troopers just hauled off on him. Repeatedly. There’s no “bit excessive” involved. I don’t see how they are going to get away with a beating like this.

You can see one officer is pointing (what appears to be) a TASER at the guy before the scrum.

yamahog > Somethin' 'bout a truck 05/12/2016 at 10:11

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Maybe if they were enforcers on a hockey team as opposed to officers of the law...

Xyl0c41n3 > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 10:18

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Yep. That’s exactly what it is.

Here’s a snippet from this article :

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Here’s a visual aid from the Pew Research Center :

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Here’s a factoid from the NAACP:

Together, African American and Hispanics comprised 58% of all prisoners in 2008, even though African Americans and Hispanics make up approximately one quarter of the US population

Here’s a graph that shows how black people are disproportionately arrested for using marijuana, which is now legal in several states:

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So, yes, it IS your white fucking privilege that is informing your opinion that things in this country are hunky dory, even too lenient. Because you have never once had to worry about existing while brown.

-A very proud brown person

Xyl0c41n3 > Somethin' 'bout a truck 05/12/2016 at 10:19

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No, they shouldn’t. It’s not a cop’s job to beat people. It’s a cop’s job to uphold the law and the constitution. It’s an oath every officer in every city of every state takes. They don’t get to bend or break a few laws in the supposed interest of the people, because once they do, then our laws are meaningless.

Xyl0c41n3 > OPPOsaurus WRX 05/12/2016 at 10:22

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I have been run off the road, chased, followed, and otherwise harassed while driving. Every time it’s happened it’s scary as fuck. Not once have I ever wanted to physically assault the asshats who have done it. What I have done, however, is call the cops in the hopes the people are arrested and have to face the justice system, under due process of the law. I don’t want the cops I call to take matters into their own hands and violate the civil rights of the people they are detaining and/or arresting.

Stapleface > Xyl0c41n3 05/12/2016 at 10:34

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Then shouldn’t this anger be pointed towards people of your own race then? If a higher proportion of the African American and Hispanic populations are behind bars, it can’t be just a coincidence, no matter how hard people like to say otherwise.

You’re correct, I’ve never had to deal with being a minority, and I can’t pretend to know what you go through on a day to day basis. But the first key to fixing this is to fix the problem. Keep kids in school, and they have a lower likelihood of turning to a life of crime.

Stapleface > Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection 05/12/2016 at 10:39

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Okay, I watched the video again. When I originally saw it, the newscast I saw it on only showed about two punches, and it was cut to when he was on the ground. Now that I've seen the whole video, I can agree that this is excessive. If the guy isn't resisting arrest (which it appears he is not), then they have indeed crossed the line.

Xyl0c41n3 > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 10:42

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Are you fucking kidding me?! Are you seriously saying that black and brown people are just more criminal? That’s not only offensive as fuck, it’s downright fucking stupid.

Black and brown people are no more criminal than anyone else. The difference is, black and brown people are disproportionately targeted by law enforcement, and once they’re in the justice system, they are assessed stiffer penalties than white people who are arrested for the exact same crimes .

The only thing you’re correct about is that this problem won’t go away until we fix it, and we fix it by stopping racist policies everywhere from our school systems (where students of color are penalized more often than whites, and where schools with majority POC students receive fewer resources), to law enforcement which unfairly targets POC via racial profiling and other means (hello, Stop & Frisk), to a justice system that unfairly and more harshly penalizes defendants and inmates of color.

The way we start fixing this is to get privileged, frustratingly ignorant, maddening people like you to realize your part in maintaining the current system.

duurtlang > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 10:45

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According to those graphs “All black men” have a considerably higher institutionalization percentage than “White men with no high school diploma”. So apparently a lack of eduction, while a factor, is not the main problem in this case.

Stapleface > duurtlang 05/12/2016 at 10:50

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You’re right, it’s not the only factor. But, reading the numbers, what are we lead to believe? That a higher percentage of minorities commit crimes. I find it hard to believe that every minority in the prison system is there simply because they’re a minority. And, since the population is currently 60% white, it’s going to be skewed anyway. If 3 in 10 white people are criminals, it's going to show a lower percentage then if there were 3 in 10 minorities, simply because there's a higher population of white people.

Stapleface > Xyl0c41n3 05/12/2016 at 11:03

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Wow, I can’t generalize, but yet you can? Interesting how that works. I’m not part of the problem just because I’m white. Just like you’re not part of the problem by being a minority.

But there’s a problem somewhere, that’s for certain.

I'm legitimately curious. If we were to fix the problems you indicated, do you think we would see a reduction in the amount of incarcerated minorities? An increase in white incarcerations?

duurtlang > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 11:07

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Those statistics aren’t about crimes that are committed, they list incarceration rates. That’s fundamentally different.

Not every crime is prosecuted, and not every prosecuted crime is prosecuted (or judged) similarly. The hypothesis is that ethnic background has a significant effect on how one’s treated by law enforcement and the judicial system. I think we can agree that ethnicity should have no effect on how your (mis)behavior is handled.

Stapleface > duurtlang 05/12/2016 at 11:11

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Yes, we can definitely agree on that. And maybe I’m coming off as an insensitive prick here in these comments, but that’s just not the case. No person deserves to be wrongfully prosecuted. I think my whole point of this was that if you’re caught in the commission of a crime, perhaps you shouldn't be treated as fairly as a normal, law abiding citizen (although I agree now that this video was excessive).

Xyl0c41n3 > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 11:14

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I’m not generalizing, I’m drawing conclusions from your own words.

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Also, this is not how to interpret statistics:

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The numbers I quoted above take into account that overall, whites make up the majority of the population. That they do doesn’t skew the fact that POC are disproportionately targeted, and sentenced to longer and stiffer penalties. That’s not how statistics work.

Again, I’ll repeat it so you can understand: I’ve based my conclusions on your own very racist words.

You are indeed part of the problem. Look in the mirror, confront that fact, and do something to change it.

duurtlang > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 11:21

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I guess the point is that it’s not up to police officers to determine who should and should not be treated fairly. This, obviously, with the disclaimer that the people involved are not posing a direct threat. The guy clearly surrendered and cooperated, and thus should be handled fairly by police officers. Initially everyone has the same rights, a court decides if those individual rights should be restricted.

Stapleface > Xyl0c41n3 05/12/2016 at 11:29

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But how have I said anything that was racist? I was just using the same facts you used. Your facts themselves say a larger percentage of minorities are incarcerated. To think that everyone in there is there solely because the color of their skin is pretty short sighted.

And you keep saying that minorities are unfairly targeted and face stiffer penalties, yet you’ve given nothing to back that up. Who says they’re unfairly targeted? How many minorities are targeted and then set free because there’s nothing criminal happening? What about whites?

Look, I’m really not trying to be an ass about this. In a different post I recanted my original statement that the use of force wasn’t excessive. The first time I watched this on my morning newscast, they showed about two punches, and this was when the suspect was already on the ground. He could have been resisting from what I originally saw.

The whole reason we got started on this conversation is that you disagreed with my opinion of civil rights. Would you agree that if you’re caught in the commission of a crime, perhaps you shouldn’t have the same rights as a law abiding citizen? No, I’m not saying beat a person to death, just that I think that perhaps it’s okay to not be as gentle with someone who apparently has no regard for others well being.

yamahog > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 11:35

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“Would you agree that if you’re caught in the commission of a crime, perhaps you shouldn’t have the same rights as a law abiding citizen?”

Once again, no! Absolutely not!

I’m not sure where you’re from, but in America, we have this thing called “due process,” in which police officers are not the ones who try, judge, sentence, and/or punish alleged criminals.

Xyl0c41n3 > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 11:43

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Did you even try reading the information in the links I provided? All the “back up” you speak of is provided therein, in addition to the information I quoted which also backs up what I’m saying.

What you are saying is patently racist because you’re ascribing the criminality of POC to our race while decrying the idea that our race is used to target and penalize us. In essence, you’re saying POC are just inherently more criminal than whites, and that that is why we are incarcerated at higher rates and for longer periods of time.

That. Is. Racist.

Your assertions are racist.

And yes, if I was fucking arrested, I would expect my civil rights to be maintained. The commission of a crime does not negate a person’s rights. If anything, all care should be taken to preserve those rights especially during those circumstances. How is that so hard to understand?

Rights aren’t there just for the “good” people, they’re there for everybody, no matter what. Otherwise, they’re not rights, they’re privileges, and we’ve seen already what happens when one group of people is privileged over another (see ALLLLLLLLL the data above).

Again... look in the mirror. Confront your racism. Do something to change it.

pauljones > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 12:12

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Stapleface > Xyl0c41n3 05/12/2016 at 12:45

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No, I’m not saying minorities are inherently more criminal. But I do believe (again), if a person is doing nothing wrong, there’s no reason for them to be arrested. If people are wrongfully targeted, then yes that is on the people who do the targeting. But that still doesn’t change that fact that (for the most part) innocent people are not arrested/convicted.

If profiling/targeting didn't exist, what do you think would be the outcome? Would the amount of minorities in prison be commensurate to the population distribution?

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > yamahog 05/12/2016 at 13:13

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Way to put succintly into words the rage I feel for this idiot who doesn’t understand the intent of the law and our rights.

Agreed

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Xyl0c41n3 05/12/2016 at 13:15

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For the most part, I like you a lot.

:-)

Xyl0c41n3 > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 05/12/2016 at 13:15

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And people wonder why we POC are angry. This shit. This shit right here is why.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > pauljones 05/12/2016 at 13:18

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Perfect avatar application

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 13:19

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Bruh, profiling is OK when it’s not based on race/creed/gender. Profiling is efficient when it considers actual human behavior.

That’s how it’s supposed to be applied

Xyl0c41n3 > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 05/12/2016 at 13:27

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D’awww. Right back atcha, boo!

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Xyl0c41n3 05/12/2016 at 13:31

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I know exactly what you mean. I get it.

I try not to manifest it because anger gets nothing done. I aim to educate without having to resort to anger, so I deflect the ignorance and kill with kindness.

It’s surprisingly efficient.

Xyl0c41n3 > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 05/12/2016 at 13:45

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I reserve my kindness for those who show a willingness for self reflection and real dialogue, not for ignorant fucks who seek only to reinforce their own racist biases.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Xyl0c41n3 05/12/2016 at 14:24

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I agree with you there

pauljones > Stapleface 05/12/2016 at 15:09

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Okay, dude. It’s time we had a good, heart-to-heart chat. White guy to white guy.

Ready? Here we go: You’re racist. You’re also woefully, embarrasingly, terribly wrong about how and why the civil rights and the criminal justice system are (theoretically, at least) supposed to work.

Note, however, that I did not call you a prick, an asshole, a Nazi, or anything like that. You see, being an asshole or a Nazi requires genuine sincerity and effort at being such. I don’t necessarily see that here, but as a white guy, I could very easily be biased here. Rather, what I see before me is ignorance.

Being racist is a virtually effortless thing to for people like you and me. It’s just something that’s so ingrained into our way of thinking that we don’t always necessarily realize that it’s wrong. Do we go about acting like Donald Trump or Strom Thurmond, and proclaim that we should build a wall around those dirty Mexican people or that those lazy black people shouldn’t be able to share water fountains and schools with white people? No, of course not. That kind of racism is, by and large, on the road to dying out. But while it’s dying, institutional racism is alive and well - something that we often don’t even realize, because it just doesn’t occur to us.

The first time I really understood that something I said or did was racist was when I was 15 - I was with my mom who was getting a car wash. While my mother (a teacher), sat and graded papers, I went into the little convenience store to get a candy and a gatorade. My mom asked me to get her a pepsi. There were two attendants at the registers, one a young white girl about my age, and one a slightly older young black guy. When I first went in, I grabbed the candy and the gatorade for myself and got in line. As it happened, the young white girl rang me up. I handed her the cash. She handed me the change. Done.

As I walked out, however, I realized that I forgot the pepsi for my mom. I went back, grabbed the pepsi, and got back in line. This time, I was helped by the young black guy. He rang me up, I put the money on the counter in front of him. He looked at me with a look of disbelief and disgust that I didn’t understand. Being the young punk that I was, and especially in front of a girl my age, I challenged him on the look. He asked my why I handed the money directly to the girl and only put it down on the counter for him, and dared me to answer. He told that it was because I was racist, and dared me to deny it. Of course, I did deny it. I got all blustery, told him to fuck off and get over himself, and haughtily walked out.

When the guy flipped off my mother and I as we drove off, my mother wondered why he was so angry. I shrugged and said he was angry at me , too, and I told her the story (minus the part where I was an asswipe, of course). And she explained it to me - by not handing him the change as I did to the girl, I was coming off as though I didn’t want to risk touching him or be associated with anything that touched him. To make it that much worse, there was also a gender thing involved. It made it seem that I was trying to be nice to the white girl and gain brownie points with her, while I didn’t five a shit about him because he was black and male.

Racism and sexism combined for the win!

Now, I don’t know that I actually consciously intended any disrespect. I didn’t walk in and think to myself, “fuck that guy” or “she’s hot let me try to flirt with her,” but the point sank in, and steadily came to be more aware of things like that; moments where, I may think/say/do something that can well be considered racist without my even realizing it. I’m sorry to say that it still occasionally happens, and I still occasionally catch myself at it. But at least I understand the reactions now, and try to change my behavior, for whatever that’s worth. But such instances do still exist.

Arguments like, “Well, if there are more minorities in prison, it’s because more minorities are breaking the law” are a perfect example of that. In a Rockwellian, white bread world, the criminal system should work just like that. People who commit crimes should be justly punished regardless of who they are, by a judge with a blindfold wrapped around their color-blind sunglasses.

Reality is a bit different. Normal Rockwell is dead, and scientists/fashionistas have yet to create those color-blind sunglasses. The truth is if you and a minority individual who is otherwise identical to you except for ethnic background were to commit the same crime, it is statistically probable that you would get a lesser sentence than they would.

A young minority child that does something stupid like, say, stealing a fancy bag or purse from a high-end department store might get a light jail sentence. A young, affluent white child that does something stupid, like, say, drunkenly getting into a car accident while knowingly driving drunk and killing several people, might get off on probation due to having a non-existent, unrecognized-by-the-DSM psychological condition known an “Affluenza.”

Want actual, factual proof? Xyl0 has already provided it.

The racism comes in when you assert (correctly) that the high incarceration rates of minorities can’t be a coincidence (it’s not), but then automatically assert that it’s because they commit more crimes. It comes in when you assert that if we fix the systemic racism in the Justice System, we wouldn’t necessarily see an increase in the incarceration rate for white (we almost certainly would). It comes in when say something blatantly racist and don’t actually even realize that it is.

Racism is real, and it can be frighteningly subtle, yet devastatingly brutal. Other times, it can be as blatant as a public beat down.

Sorry dude, but you have some racist attitudes. I do, too. It’s something that I know and recognize every day, and I have make a constant effort to try to counteract. Same thing with sexist behavior. I’ve said and done some pretty sexist shit, and not really even realized it until much later. But I can usually recognize when I’m doing it now and correct myself.

Again, I don’t think that you’re necessarily intentionally being racist. But I do think that ignorance is the number one perpetual reinforcement of racism, and that the fact that we may not realize that we’re being racist or sexist doesn’t mean that are action aren’t racist or sexist.

Stapleface > pauljones 05/12/2016 at 15:27

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You make some very fair points. I don’t consider myself a racist, but when you put things the way you did, I could see how people might think this way. I meant no disrespect to anyone, and feel bad if that’s the way they feel I was acting.

I was just using the statistics as I viewed them, not taking into consideration that there is more than one way to interpret them. When looking at them as presented (that the reasons incarcerations are high are due to profiling), I can see how my views might be far different than someone else. I’m certainly willing to admit when I’m wrong, and the way I was interpreting this data was just that. Wrong.

Xyl0c41n3 > pauljones 05/12/2016 at 17:24

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This is why I love you, pauljones.

Though, as an addendum, I’d like to add (and I hope Stapleface sees it), that his willingness to re-evaluate his stance, concede points, and offer an apology to you, a white man (but not to me, the Latina woman who originally made all the same points) is yet another example of his internalized racism (and perhaps sexism, though that’s much less provable). *sigh*

Regardless, as always, you are eloquent and a joy to read. Thank you.